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Archived Message

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
by Bruce Keaton

Several months ago I purchase a maltese. I wanted a good quality and when I found out about one being 'Champion Sired' I got it and paid a premium price. About a month ago I find out that my maltese was sired by a Canadian champion. I did some research and now feel I got ripped off as Canadian championship titles are no where near what an American one is. In my research I found that less points are required and no majors are required amoungst other things to receive this so-called champion title. Shouldn't this person disclosed this to me? I love this little dog and wouldn't give him up for anything but I should be entitled for some of my purchase price money back- - yes?. The seller said it was champion-sired and said she did no wrong by saying this and has offered me nothing. What are my options if any? I would appreciate any help anyone could give me.

DISCUSSION:

I don't know about getting your money refunded, but you were deceived if you thought you were getting an American Champion. Canadian Champions were jokingly referred to as "cheap champions" and if you wanted a title before your dogs name, Canada is the place to go. It isn't unusual to go to shows there and come home with a winner and a title. It is much, much more difficult to show in USA and get Championship status, and more difficult to win groups and Best in Show in USA than in Canada. Love your maltese for what it is. Champion title doesn't mean everything. Phylis
-Phylis

I too was decieved when I got my puppy, although a different kind of deception. What really matters is as Phyllis said if you love your puppy and it is healthy what does it matter. I added the experience to one of those expensive lessons and have moved on.
-Nikki

Bruce and Phylis:
I take deep offence at your remarks about the Canadian system. I don't know how much "research" you have done into the Canadian system but I am certain that it has not included a visit to Canada to see for yourself, the quality of our dogs and of our championships.

Yes, our system does require 10 as opposed to 15 points and there is no requirement for majors. The reason for this is NOT to make our championships easy or "cheap" but rather because many of our breeds do not have enough dogs shown to make up the numbers required for a major win at breed level. The American population is approximately ten times the Canadian population, with a proportional decline in the show dogs. The Canadian Kennel Club, as recently as last year, looked at adopting the American system but upon research and reflection, realized that many breeds would simply not have the numbers to make this system feasible.

To label our championships "cheap" is both ignorant and offensive. If our championships were as worthless as you imply, why do SO MANY top winning American dogs come up here to gain Canadian titles ? As for being "cheap", nothing in this country is that.

There are many U.S. maltese champions that are laughable and I am sure that there are many in Canada as well. The truth is, with a good handler and some money, almost any dog can be "finished" on either side of the border.

Bruce, I was not there when you bought your dog but if the breeder said the dog was a champion and did not specify as to American or Canadian champion, then technically she did nothing wrong. You should have recieved a 4 or 5 generation pedigree with your puppy. Have a look and see what she put down for the sire. I always distinguish between American or Canadian champions or American AND Canadian champions and she really should have done so as well. You love your dog, does he or she not seem worth the purchase price ? If his/her quality does not seem to be as was represented to you, the fault will lay with both the Canadian father and the American mother and there may indeed be a legal remedy for you. Consult an attorney.

You know, Bruce and Phylis,I can't help thinking that there are ways that your points could have been made without inflaming or offending. Bruce, you had a valid concern but don't forget that there are people from all parts of the world reading Jay's fantastic site. Sometimes HOW one says things, can be just as important as WHAT one says.

All the best,
Andrea
-Andrea Noel Snoel Maltese perm.reg

Bruce, Did you buy your pup with an eye to breeding it or because you wanted a "show quality" dog to love, rather than one more on the "pet quality" side? It seems to me that unless there is some issue with breeding or showing relative to the Canadian championship, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I notice that in Jay's photo album there are beautiful champs listed as Am/Can champs. Also Andrea''s dogs are gorgeous little champs and don't you know, they are Candaian born, bred, and shown. I don't know much about breeding, but if you bought your dog to use for stud, you should probably ask someone in the know about any issues that the Canadian sire might bring up for you. Since you said nothing about the mother, I am assuming she is not a champion, so seems to me that has its own impact on the situation, again depending on your intent with the dog. If all you want is a baby to love, then what difference? Lucy has one lonely champ back several generations, but she's the best baby in the world if you ask me--quite a championship lover! One more thing--and this is more for Phyliss--I agree with Andrea that it is less than polite to insult others (an entire country in this case!) using this bulletin board as a forum. This is especially the case when (a) your statements may be inaccurate or your personal perception/bias may be faulty, and (b) many people haven't a clue about show dogs, breeding, or championships and will take this sort of info as gospel, which could cause more than its fair share of problems and fallout..
-cathy brown

I am sorry if I offended anyone. It was a bad choice of words. I was just trying to get my point across. I didn't mean to hurt anyones feelings.
-Phylis

A champion is a champion is a champion....that is to say the term "champion" in and of itself is meaningless excepting that it does show that someone cared enough, took the time, and spend the money to put the dog to its title. It should also indicate that the dog has a certain level of excellence (as judges on both sides of the border can and do withold ribbons). Whether it is an American or whatever country it has a title in, it probably was not limping, trying to bite the judge, walked properly on lead, and had two testicles, and wasn't deaf or blind. Other than these points champions in most countries (including the US) are only as good as the dogs they compete against. If that dog had to compete against Andrea's Maltese, I say it was a "darn good Maltese." If, however, it earned its title by defeating only its kennel mates (which happens on both sides of the border) I'd say it at least meets minimum standards of the breed. Case in point: As far as I know the male that still holds the record for the top producing Maltese in the history of the breed was bred in Canada. Many Canadian bred champions have crossed the border into the US to win BIS, even at our most prestigous show: Westminster Kennel Club. Andrea's Maltese, "Twinkie," came very close to winning BIS at our recent AMA National Specialty. She has an Award of Merit to prove it. In case you don't know it, there were Maltese shown in competition there from all over the world and only three Awards of Merits were passed out. This was the largest Maltese competition in the Western Hemisphere. I suggest you go back to your "friends" and give them this information and tell them to put "that in their pipes and smoke it."

You have been mislead, my friend. Beverly Passe
-Beverly Passe

I contacted a law firm like Andra suggested and at my consultation he said I have a case if I could prove that monetarywise a American champ is worth more US dollars than a Canadian champ. He said we could get that much and hope to get attorney fees too. What would the difference be in US dollars? I want to put this to rest A.S.A.P.
-Bruce Keaton

One thing that came to my mind as I read the postings in this issue is that just Who thinks what makes an American championship worth more than a Canadian championship? The points? Yes, it is true that under the AKC rules, 15 points are required to be finished and under the CKC rules, 10..so what? I do live in Korea and to finish here under the FCI and the KKC rules, I need 20 points.. and with so few dog shows offered here compared to the frequency of dog shows in the U.S., sometimes it takes 5 years to finish one. But other than those very popular breeds like Rottweiler and Maltese, some of those dogs finished here are less than a pet quality in any sense.. So if someone is telling me a dog is better than the other because it has won under the system that requires more points to finish, I will say so? As long as the individual dog is worth for what it was sold for, even though I don't think I can never price even a mutt, than who cares if it came from the Canadian champion line or the American champion line? I have been to the shows in Canada and in the U.S., the biggest impression that I got from the shows in the U.S. is... it sure is very political, not practical.. If you or me for this matter hire a known handler and enter a dog to be judged by a judge that knows the handler..well.. you pretty much have a guarantee of points...In many cases, money buys the title.. and I think it is the same in most of any kinds of shows.. So the best way of cope with this kinda problem for me is evaluate the puppy myself..and even if someone doesn't agree with me, if I think the dog is worth a million dollars, then he is worth a million dollars. This is true if and only if I bought the pup not to be sold for any reason.

Well I am not making senses anymore..but what I said above is what I think is true for myself.. Thanks for reading..
-John Kim

I am an AKC judge and can only speak for myself and I will say "I do not play the politics game" and resent any statements to the contrary. I judge that dog or bitch, not the handler, owner or whatever else money can buy. I put up the dog that best meets the breed standard that day. To think any differently is usually by one finding excuses to why they lost.

Candada does need to make some reform as to their current title completion guidelines. And yes Candada does have Maltese that represent the breed very, very nicely.
-Mr. C

Mr. C--As a 20 year exhibitor, I'd surely like to know your name so I can make entries under you. I think it is great that you base your decisions on the dogs presented, but all too often, that is NOT the case. My dogs could probably do a lot more winning than they do if I had the financial means and the inclination to hire a professional handler, but I LIKE showing my own dogs. Under noted judges who don't base their decisions on who is on the people end of the lead, my dogs do a lot of winning. And after all, that is what dog shows are supposed to be about--the quality of our breed's future breeding stock.
-20 year exhibitor